When Detroit Played the Numbers, with Felicia B. George

Felicia B. George is a native Detroiter who loves Detroit history and culture. She earned her doctorate in anthropology from Wayne State University, where she is now an adjunct professor. Her recent book, When Detroit Played the Numbers: Gambling’s History and Cultural Impact on the Motor City, was released by Wayne State University Press in 2024 and has been named as a 2025 Michigan Notable Book by the Library of Michigan.

www.doctordetroit.net

https://wsupress.wayne.edu/9780814350768/

Transcript

(0:14 - 2:20)
Welcome to All Write in Sin City, a podcast about writers and writing in the Windsor, Detroit region. Your podcasters today are Irene Moore Davis, author, educator and local historian, Kim Conklin, Windsor-based writer and filmmaker, and me, Sarah Jarvis, former bookseller, publishing rep and Literary Festival chair. Welcome. 

Felicia B. George is a native Detroiter who loves Detroit history and culture. She earned her doctorate in anthropology from Wayne State University, where she is now an adjunct professor. Her recent book, When Detroit Played the Numbers, Gambling's History and Cultural Impact on the Motor City, was released recently by Wayne State University Press and has been named a 2025 Michigan Notable Book by the Library of Michigan. 

Welcome, Dr. Felicia B. George. Thank you so very much for having me. You have the credentials of an anthropologist and you teach anthropology, but it is very evident that you are also a very passionate historian with a deep love for Detroit's history and culture, so much so that you have established a virtual museum dedicated to Detroit's history, which can be found, by the way, at www.drdetroit.net. How and when did you fall in love with the history of Detroit? You know, I blame my dad for this one because my dad was a huge historian, and from the time that we were little kids, he always, we would take these Saturday field trips across wherever it was that he had the notion to go, and so it kind of fed into that curiosity, that love of history, spending those afternoons with my dad, my brothers and sisters, and it just grew, and Detroit's history is just so rich that it was just a natural fit that, okay, I love history, this has got great history, great culture, and the two just kind of came together.

(2:22 - 4:02)
That's amazing. It's wonderful to have that family, those family memories as well. I think that's really important. 

So Dr. George, this book, When Detroit Played the Numbers, is the result of many years of research. How did you first become acquainted with this history, and what was the spark that launched your research process, do you think? So this is really interesting. This is not what I was initially going to study. 

So this actually came from, the book came from my dissertation when I was getting my PhD, and initially, I go to my chair for my committee, and I'm pitching, I'm going to study drug dealing and how it's very similar to Fortune 500 companies, how it's ran. And I don't know how we got in the conversation, but we started talking about this illegal gambling that took place years ago. And I was kind of trying to explain how the two were similar and how they evolved. 

And he stopped me, and he said, you know what, tell me some more about this illegal numbers. And so I started telling him about it. And for a lot of years, I grew up with it and didn't realize it. 

My dad worked at the now closed rural plant, and one of his good friends was actually a numbers operator. And growing up, I didn't know it was illegal. I didn't know what was going on because they kind of kept that quiet from kids. 

All I knew was that Uncle TJ was the greatest. He would bring me Concord grapes and Spearmint gum. And so as I'm telling my chair about this, I'm like, you know, until this day, illegal numbers are still played in plants. 

And my husband worked at General Motors and had a connection to it. And he stopped me, my chair, and said, you know what, I really think that your story is actually these illegal numbers. Think about it, and then let's go back and discuss, you know, what it is you want to do.

(4:02 - 4:09)
So I went home that night, talked about it with my husband. And I was like, you know what, I think there's something here. And that's how I picked it up and ran with it.

(4:11 - 4:48)
Really interesting. So for those of us who may not be familiar, you talked about playing the numbers. Can you talk a little bit specifically about what you mean by the numbers? So all it is is a game of chance. 

It's just the illegal lottery. So today's Michigan Daily Three is a carbon copy of the original numbers game. They actually stole it from these men and women who actually ran these enterprises. 

So what you do is you pick three numbers, and hopefully the three numbers that you choose as you place a wager on are the numbers that's going to be drawn. If they're drawn, then you're a winner. If not, hey, try again another day.

(4:48 - 10:30)
And it was very important to Detroit's African-American population community, right? Absolutely it was. So what a lot of people don't understand is this whole notion of playing the numbers and gambling, you know, it's as American as apple pie. You know, we brought this love of gambling with us overseas here when the states were formed. 

And so it was an easy way to raise taxes until it was outlawed. And then slowly but surely the interest came back. And what happened was when this game was brought to black Detroit, the men and women who ran these numbers organizations, yes, they were doing something illegal. 

Yes, they profited big time from it. But they were astute enough and cared enough about their community that a lot of the profits they put back into the community. So things like, you know, insurance companies would not have been born and founded had it not been for this money. 

Sending people to schools for scholarships, giving people jobs. It was really, really important because it was a huge source of economic wealth. Yes. 

I mean, growing up, I heard all about the numbers from my grandparents and their friends. Really, it was that generation, the grandparents and their contemporaries. There was a guy who lived down the street from my grandparents in Windsor who was sort of the numbers runner and who not only engaged in this enterprise, but kind of gave people some financial hope. 

But he was also kind of a storyteller and connector who shared all the information about what was happening all around the McDougall Street corridor, which was the traditional black neighborhood in our city. So for people of African descent who grew up with family in the Detroit River region, whether on the U.S. side or the Canadian side, we've always known the significance of the numbers. I think this history has been a little bit hidden from other people. 

Can you touch on that? Well, I think part of the reason why it was hidden is the fact that we have to understand that it was something that was illegal for a lot of years. So when it really came to Detroit in the late 1919s, and it was really in the foundation of the black community, from there up until 1973, it was illegal. And so you didn't talk about it. 

You knew it existed. You knew the good that came from it. You knew the bad that came with it. 

But it was something that everyone knew that was illegal. A lot of times, like your parents and neighbors, you knew who it was that did it. And these were people that were really well respected in the community because they were the community builders. 

And so you wanted to protect these people that you respected. And so for a lot of years, you kept it quiet. It was like the open secret that everyone knew, but you just didn't talk about it because it was illegal. 

So lotteries, as you've mentioned, have been part of American history for centuries, and they've been significant in American history. They've done things like funding the American Revolution and other really important projects. But what was different about the way that Detroit African-Americans used lottery systems to support themselves, uplift the community, and maintain some cohesion? The difference came with this, and I give a lot of credit to John Roxborough. 

So John Roxborough is probably best known as being the man who found, cultivated, and promoted Joe Lewis. He was Joe Lewis's manager. But what a lot of people don't know is he is the father of numbers in Detroit. 

He brings that to the city. And he came from a family that was very educated. His father was an attorney. 

His mom was a teacher. And they came from Louisiana to Detroit searching for that American dream of being able for his father to actually practice his law in an atmosphere where he could. And as John was growing up, the expectation was that he and his brothers would carry on that tradition, that they would be educated. 

And he was very, very smart enough where he gets to take a step back and say, you know what? Because of my color, I don't care how educated I get. I am going to be denied opportunities. And he made a promise that if he ever made it, he was going to take care of himself, but that he was going to promote the race as well. 

And so why this is so significant is, it's those penny, nickels, and dimes that were made from this game that they were able to take and actually uplift a community in so many ways. Wow, that is fascinating. Can you touch on the complicated relationship that the numbers runners had with law enforcement in and around Detroit? So, you know, you cannot run an organization that is making millions of dollars every year in a confined space without law enforcement knowing is going on. 

It's just not going to happen. And so the numbers men knew this, and they knew in order for them to run these businesses, in order for them to be successful, in order for them to go unmolested, untouched by police, they had to provide bribes. And police are like everyone else, they're good ones, they're bad ones. 

And the temptation from the money for some were just too much. And so they actually would take these bribes to ensure that these men were able to run these operations without being shut down. That is so interesting. 

I mean, we think about the animosity that sometimes exists between, you know, elected officials, city administrations, law enforcement, and the communities of African descent. But it's interesting to see that there was sort of this wink, wink, nod, nod, and an actual collaboration to some extent to make the system a success. So to explore this history, you relied on, you know, traditional historical methods, to some degree, court documents, newspaper accounts, other documentation, but also oral history played a really important role in your research.

(10:30 - 20:19)
Can you share a little bit about how you've presented the story of Detroit African Americans involvement in the numbers from an anthropological perspective and why that felt like the right approach for you? You know, I think, you know, you want to do it as a researcher, you want to be able to, your voice is going to automatically come out in anything that you're doing when you're a researcher. But it's very important that the community, the people that are involved in what you're researching, that their voice comes out. So you get that, you know, emic versus etic, and you try to bring them together. 

And it became very, very important that people who were the numbers operators or numbers players, that they told their story because their perspective is different from mine, which is different from law enforcement, which is different from the people at large in the community. And so one of the most difficult things, one of the most rewarding things were those oral histories. You know, I'm covering a huge time period. 

And so there were big chunks of where, you know what, these people are now passed on, they're no longer alive. And so I had to rely on newspaper articles and those court records to try to pull out their voice and their perspective. But I was also lucky because I had people that were able and willing to speak to me to talk about their experience. 

You know, we had ReGette Davis, you know, her mom was very much involved in the numbers. And so she was able to tell her mother's story. I had one informant who was the biggest numbers operator in a plant out of Honiak. 

And so to get their perspective, to get their mindset, to get what it meant to them, I felt really, really brought a huge significant part to the research into the book. Wow. And those generous people who shared their stories with you, what's been their reaction to the book since it's been released? You know, it's really interesting that you ask that because you had initially when I started speaking with them, because when you talk about anything illegal, you know, you've got to worry about, okay, what is this going to mean to me? And so I tried to make sure that anything that I studied was beyond statutes of limitation so that they could be a little secure in knowing it's okay. 

And so when I first was doing this, there was a little bit of nervousness, nervousness, you know, about, hey, hey, you know, is my name going to be used? Is this going to come back to me? And once the product, once it was finished, once the book was done, I received so many thank you. Thank you for telling our story. Thank you for showing that this was something more than something that was nefarious. 

And so I, for me, I think I felt some of the biggest joy when one of my informants said, you know, I'm able now to hold this up to my children, and they can see that what it was that I did was not just for them, but was for a whole community. And so that was really, really, really powerful. Awesome. 

Again, Irene from Windsor, Ontario. When I was growing up, I knew a woman named Beulah Cousins, who had come down as a very young adult from Chatham, Ontario, and worked in this dazzling world of the Detroit numbers, where she was actually counting money and tabulating things and using her brain. She eventually became a very well-respected teacher, but that was such a pivotal point in her life. 

And she actually met her husband through that enterprise. So it's interesting to see how, even though it was an illegal enterprise, officially, it also had all of these tentacles of good that extended into the community in a variety of ways. So when Detroit Played the Numbers has entered the world at a time when many important and courageous conversations about equity, diversity, and inclusion are taking place, even though there are some segments of society that seemingly object to those conversations. 

In light of that contemporary ethos, what do you most hope that readers will take away from this book about Detroit Playing the Numbers and the impact on the community? You know, it has got to the point now where we have to be, take a step back and say, hey, okay, no matter what you think, where your position is on DEI, understand that even when you don't think it exists, it exists. And it's very, very important. This book, this story is about that. 

You know, it's not diversity, it's not just about race and gender. It's more than that. It's about, you know, life experience, social economic status. 

And when you read this book, you see that this was not just a black activities. This was an activity that it transcended race, it transcended ethnicity. It's a story that shows how when you do bring that diversity into something like this, it spills over into the community and the good far outweighs the bad. 

And so I think that is a story that I can proudly say does show the importance of what diversity is. When people are denied equitable ways to meet whatever their goal is, they become very creative and do what they have to do to achieve whatever that goal is. And when you're excluded, you once again, will figure out creative ways to be included. 

And so this story covers all of that over a nice span of time. We'd love to hear you read from your book. Would you care to read a section for our audience? Ma'am, I would. 

Thank you. So this is chapter nine. Hell hath no fury like a woman's scorned. 

Dear sirs, on this night, a girl has ended her life because of the mental cruelty caused by racketeer William McBride, ex Great Lakes Numbers house operator. McBride is the go between for Lieutenant John McCarthy. He arranges the fix between our dutiful lieutenant and the racketeers. 

Janet McDonnell, August 1939. As Reid was preparing for reelection, little did he know 36 year old Janet McDonnell would play a major role in his future impact several Detroit numbers operators. An English woman born and educated in Belfast, Ireland. 

McDonnell had recently become a U.S. citizen and lived alone in a room in house on Detroit's east side while her 11 year old daughter Pearl lived with her sister Sophia. McDonnell was an idealist, an avid reader who loved poetry. A bit of a romantic, she was unlucky in love. 

Just three years previously, she had been granted an uncontested divorce from her first husband because he was cruel, had cheated on her with other women, had failed to take care of her and their daughter before finally deserting them. While working as a cashier at an east side Detroit market in 1937, McDonnell met William McBride, a manager of the Great Lakes Mutuals company. Shortly after meeting him, McBride secured her a job there and the two became romantically involved. 

McBride was born in Corktown located on Detroit's southwest side and previously made his living as a bootlegger before being hired to manage the Great Lakes Mutuals company. Divorced, McBride at 37 had a 10 year old son. He was described as an average sort of fellow. 

At 5 feet 9 inches and 170 pounds with brown hair and blue eyes, there was nothing about him that really stood out. He was a former bootlegger, current numbers operator and all-time gambler. He tried to paint the picture of success by the way he dressed, with the fancy coupe he drove and by being a big tipper. 

Those who were truly successful made fun of him by calling him flashy and the looking glass boxer. Because of the way he pranced in front of mirrors whenever he wore his new tie, McBride was arrested nine times for various crimes including possession of gambling equipment and was known as the man who could get a Detroit police officer promoted to a sergeant for $300. McBride had a close relationship with Richard Reading Jr. who was not only the son of the mayor but also served as his father's secretary. 

In July 1939, McBride ended his on-again off-again romantic relationship with Madonna. McBride urged her for her own good to find some nice fellow. McBride in breaking up with Madonna had called her a rat, accusing her of informing on another woman involved in a fraud scheme. 

In response to the ugly breakup, Madonna became distraught and dramatically vowed McBride would have another woman over her dead body. Early in the day on August 5, 1939, Madonna picked up Pearl from her sister's house to go on a picnic and horseback riding on Delisle. During the outing, Madonna was irritable. 

She found fault with little Pearl and with the horses. By the time she and Pearl returned to her room, Madonna's mood had improved. That night, McDonald called McBride saying she had to see him. 

At midnight, they met at Woodward Avenue and West Grand Boulevard in the city. McDonald and McBride talked about their breakup. She wanted him to take her to get something to eat but he refused. 

Instead, McBride left McDonald and met another woman at a cheap hotel in downtown Detroit for a trice. Upon his refusal, McDonald retrieved Pearl. McDonald, distraught and distracted with Pearl dressing a pink taffeta dress, drove around that clear warm night until Pearl fell asleep. 

With Pearl sitting next to her in the automobile, she decided to take their lives. Janet parked her idling automobile in a rented garage located on Detroit's North End and ran a hose from the exhaust of the car's window. Carbon monoxide, the silent killer, did its job. 

Janet and Pearl's bodies were discovered the next evening. Shortly before they were found, McBride was playing golf with Detroit Police Lieutenant John Mack McCarthy. Found in McDonald's body were several letters and photographs. 

The letters were addressed to various officials including Police Commissioner Enrique Pickard, the newspaper editors of Detroit's largest papers, Michigan's governor, and the head of the FBI for Detroit. In the letters, McDonald accused several police officials of being guilty of taking bribe from McBride and other numbers organizations. In the letter written to the FBI, she said there was a deal of vice in the city of Detroit that included corruption with the Detroit Police Department.

(20:20 - 22:05)
McDonald recounted how McBride paid monthly bribes to a number of sergeants and to Lieutenant John McCarthy. In return, his numbers operations ran free of police interference. If a numbers operation was to be raided by police, it was alleged that McCarthy tipped off the organization, allowing evidence to be removed ahead of time. 

In this same letter to the FBI, McDonald said that McBride had failed to pay taxes for years, had a record for smuggling illegal liquor from Canada to Detroit during Prohibition, and possibly had a warrant out for his arrest. News of McDonald's suicide hit the Detroit newspapers on Monday, August 7th, and what was reported scared William McBride and Detroit's numbers bankers. The numbers bankers announced that their places would close for at least two days because they were under scrutiny. 

Players were notified the numbers writers would not be taking wagers, and many did. To be aware of the irresponsible organization, they did. Wow. 

So interesting, Dr. George. Are you working on a new writing now? I sure am. So currently I'm writing, working on a book that will kind of cover the history of the criminal justice system in Detroit. 

Wow. And when might we expect that? I'm hoping to have it done within the next year or so. Very good. 

Felicia B. George's fascinating new book, When Detroit Played the Numbers, Gambling's History and Cultural Impact on the Motor City, was published by Wayne State University Press and is available now. Thank you for joining us, Dr. George. And again, thank you so very much for having me. 

I really enjoyed this. Thanks for joining us. Look for more episodes of All Right in Sin City wherever you listen to podcasts, or check out our website, allrightinsincity.com. For information and announcements of new podcasts, sign up to our email list or follow us on Facebook and Twitter.