Mad Dog and the Sea Dragon with Lisa de Nikolits

Lisa de Nikolits is the award-winning author of twelve published novels. 

She has appeared on recommended reading lists for Open Book Toronto, 49th Shelf, Chatelaine, Canadian Living, Hello! Canada, the Quill & Quire, and most recently, the CBC’s 65 works of Canadian fiction to watch for in Fall 2022. Her book The Occult Persuasion and The Anarchist’s Solution was longlisted for a Sunburst Award for Excellence in Canadian Literature of The Fantastic, and The Rage Room was a finalist in the International Book Awards, 2021. Her short fiction and poetry have also been published in various international anthologies and journals. Originally from South Africa, Lisa de Nikolits came to Canada in 2000. She lives and writes in the Beaches in Toronto. The book we’re talking about today is her latest, Mad Dog and the Sea Dragon, a modern noir novel from Inanna Press 

https://www.lisawriter.com/

https://inanna.ca/product/mad-dog-and-the-sea-dragon/

Transcript

(0:14 - 1:26)
Welcome to All Write in Sin City, a podcast about writers and writing in the Windsor, Detroit region. Your podcasters today are Sarah Jarvis, former bookseller, publishing rep, and literary festival chair, Kim Conklin, Windsor-based writer and filmmaker, and me, Irene Moore-Davis, author, educator, and local historian. Our featured guest today is Lisa DeNicolitz. 

Lisa DeNicolitz is the award-winning author of 11, soon to be 12, published novels. She has appeared on recommended reading lists for Open Book Toronto, 49th Shelf, Chatelaine, Canadian Living, Hello Canada, The Quill & Choir, and most recently, the CBC's 65 Works of Canadian Fiction to Watch for Fall in 2022. Her book, The Occult Persuasion and the Anarchist's Solution, was long listed for a Sunburst Award for Excellence in Canadian Literature of the Fantastic, and The Rage Room was a finalist in the International Book Awards 2021.

(1:27 - 2:44)
Her short fiction and poetry have also been published in various international anthologies and journals. Originally from South Africa, Lisa DeNicolitz came to Canada in 2000. She lives and writes in the beaches in Toronto. 

The book we're talking about today is her latest, Mad Dog and the Sea Dragon, a modern noir novel from Inanna Press. Welcome, Lisa. Thank you very, very much. 

Yes, thank you for having me. And actually, yes, so now we're officially 12 novels. I think when I wrote that bio, I said 11, soon to be 12, because I didn't want to jinx anything. 

I never wanted to jinx anything, right? So happily, our dear Mad Dog is now in the world as a real book, so I can officially say 12. So that feels quite good. That's wonderful. 

Looking over those 12 published novels, which is a great feat, they appear to feature a wide variety of genre influences and styles. What for you defines a Lisa DeNicolitz novel? And what draws you to write a story? I see or hear something, and it can be as simple as a phrase. For example, like the rage room.

(2:44 - 4:22)
I was at work. A colleague came over and said that she was going to a rage room because a friend of hers was recently divorced and needed to smash up on her stuff. And I thought the rage room. 

And so immediately, I knew I had to write a book titled The Rage Room. But then what I had in mind was completely different to what actually evolved into the book. So oftentimes, I will have an idea for a book that I'm going to write in this specific way. 

And I plot it out. But then once I start writing it, it becomes something completely different. And that's why the books are really different. 

And I very much allow myself to be in that sort of mystic canoe that takes me down that river. And so I'm fascinated as I'm writing to see what's happening. Sometimes it's harder for me than others. 

For example, with the rage room, it turned out to be a sci-fi book. And I'm not sci-fi. The thing is, he never wanted to write sci-fi because time travel is so complex. 

But then it had to be a sci-fi novel. So that was one of the hardest books for me to write. But I always say the books write me. 

And I'm the conduit like puppet, like they're the puppet master. And I'm just doing my darnedest to keep up. Oftentimes, I'm like scrambling to keep up with what the book is demanding of me.

(4:23 - 5:24)
Some of your reviews mention the filmic visual style of your novels. Mad Dog and the Sea Dragon also has a very strong visual quality. What influences the visual aspect of your writing and how do you achieve that kind of impact? Well, in my day job, I'm an art director. 

And actually, a percentage of the inspiration for Mad Dog came from going to a photographic gallery because my husband's a photographer. And so we go to a lot of art galleries. So there we are in this art gallery. 

And I see, and it's an exhibition that includes works by Weejee. He was that true crime photographer in New York. And I spot a picture of Mad Dog Esposito being led away. 

And the caption is, Snarling Mad Dog. And I was like, I have to write about Mad Dog. I actually, I'll be honest, I thought he was kind of sexy, you know, that like Bonnie and Clyde bad boy thing.

(5:25 - 12:13)
And so I'm standing there. So immediately, I had the visuals of the gangster that he was. But then I wanted it to be in a modern time, but he still could translate, right? So that was very much the visual. 

So I think I see things in very visual terms immediately, in a visceral kind of way. Well, also sexy, your main character styles after Jessica Rabbit, even adopting the name Jessica. Oh, that's so interesting. 

Sarah, don't It's so funny. But many different that I haven't heard that before that didn't occur to me. Because someone else said there was another Jessica rain. 

And then actually, there's someone that I know in real life, he dresses really stylishly. And people thought that I actually modeled main character after her. And in actual fact, now you've mentioned Jessica Rabbit, and how do you totally see it? Actually, the main inspiration when it was where I was very young child, I was playing dress up with a friend of mine, her name was Lorna Latigan. 

And I remember like, she had they were living in sort of art in the suburbs, and her mom was British. And her mom had this cardboard box full of like, cocktail dresses, and ball gowns and things. And so she let Lorna and I dress up in them. 

And I remember thinking at the time, wouldn't it be fun to dress like this all the time. So that's actually where the inspiration came from. But it's so interesting, because now I totally look at Jessica, I've got like the book right here. 

And now yeah, I see Jessica Rabbit, that's really amazing. So it's kind of funny. That's very cool. 

Yeah. Well, that was that was our question was, you know, your inspiration. Do you think she developed in a certain way as you wrote your novel as well that you didn't expect or you did expect? You know, I worked very hard to actually make her a bit of a stronger character. 

Because I knew from the outset, I must admit, I'm drawn to people who are very much on the periphery of life, because I feel like I relate to them. Like, one of the books I wrote is called The Nearly Girl. And it's about a woman who gets and she nearly gets things right, but she gets them wrong. 

So it's almost like, I'm gonna say, um, like, she can't exist well, she can't hold down a job, her relationships are, she can't have sort of, I'm gonna say, novel relationships, because she has this kind of social disorder, as it were. And to be honest, it's something I very much relate to. And because I, like my husband will say to me, how do you look in Toronto, and I have no sense of direction, you know, some things like that. 

So I nearly get some things right, but I get them very wrong. So Jessica Wren was a lot of what I could personally relate to somebody who kind of actually struggles a bit in the real world. And so she lives to a large degree inside her head, which I do. 

You know, I remember, I went to a convent, and invariably, it's like the parent teacher meetings, you know, Sister Veronica, Sister Colin Keel, and Sister Tractor would all be saying to my mum and dad, Lisa is such a daydreamer. She'd be good if she could just focus and apply herself. But you see, I run and struggle, because my head is, and sometimes people get almost annoyed with me, because they're like, why am I, why would I even think the things I do will get as confused, you'll not see the glaring, obvious, normal thing. 

So I channel that into, so you asked me earlier, like, what would make a signature Lisa DeNicolas book? And I would say, it's characters who are kind of quirky and struggling to exist in the mainstream. And so that they're trying to survive in the mainstream, and that takes various guises. Another character we spend a lot of time with is Enzo, the real-life crime boss who styles himself after Mad Dog Esposito. 

So he's a very recognizable gangster, but he also has some surprises. How do you craft a strong character that's recognizable in that way, while avoiding the pitfalls of sort of well-known character types or stereotypes? Well, I'm really, really bonded with Enzo, you know. I mean, there's so much about him that's really bad, but there's so much about him that's also, by thought, kind of vulnerable. 

And so I wanted to show that. And so, not that this is any plot spoilers, but he has a really large love of pastries. And so, he's really, really fond of this. 

And so, he also struggles in his way, because he also has a really strong mother, Grace, who I was very much seeing as Margaret Thatcher strobe Michael Caine type character. And also, then there's his lineage of the crime bosses that came before, and their strength. And so, Enzo's struggling as well. 

I mean, he does really very, very bad things, but you get the feeling. It's like, what do people say often? They look like ducks on the surface, sailing smoothly, but their legs are paddling like crazy underneath. And so, that's Enzo. 

And I think, he ultimately, I think, was a weak man. And I wanted to show that. He didn't demonstrate much inner strength. 

I feel like I gave him opportunities, and there were moments where I was like, okay, is Enzo going to step up? And is he going to do the right thing? And again, I don't want to give away any spoilers. But sometimes, I was dismayed by how Enzo behaved. And that was kind of just who he was.

(12:16 - 13:07)
That's great. Well, when you're looking at things like, when you're constructing a novel, you're looking at character, a plot line, or a mood. So, with Mad Dog and Sea Dragon, what's your favorite thing to do in that construction process? Is it the character plot line or mood? What kind of makes you smile as you think about your process of doing it, now that it's done? I just loved being with the characters. 

I loved all of them, like Trevor, the bodyguard. And surprising things happened. Like, there was that moment with Trevor and Jessica, where she all of a sudden is this really good car driver. 

Like, she drives really well. I didn't know where that came from. And I was like, oh, that's such an empowering moment.

(13:08 - 14:13)
And I really, really enjoyed that. I think, you know, for me, my favorite part of any of the book process is that magical thing where I'm literally in a room, or even in a movie. Because you pointed out, it's like, you know, very visual and very thematic. 

So, and I've always kind of had this in my head. And I even wrote a short story about it last year. I used to do this as a child. 

I used to imagine, it may sound a little weird, but like a massive movie screen, like, of my life in parallel while I was living it. So that I could actually see it. And I guess, almost like these days, you know, there are drones and things. 

But I had this visual. And so, in a way, it's almost like I'm on a movie set with these characters, or a theater set, right? And we're chatting with each other. And I'm very much the pedestrian non-player in the whole thing.

(14:13 - 14:33)
I'm just the, you know, hardworking person. And then, but I'm with them. And it's such fun. 

Like, I think the kind of the saddest moment for me is really when I actually finish the book. Because then it's like, I have to leave the stage, you know, and leave there. Then they're still there.

(14:34 - 15:39)
I have to go back to real world. Just a quick follow up before we move on to the next question. So the way you talk about your characters, it sounds like if you relate to them as if they're real people, do they sort of grow and change and develop as you spend time with them? They do, but not because of me. 

Because of them and because of the way they interact with each other. And yes, they are very, very real. And you know, what's kind of strange is sometimes after I've written a book, I'll be on the subway. 

And I've written a character that I think is 100% original. And I've like crafted them or they crafted themselves down to what they're wearing and what they look like. And then I see them on the subway. 

And I'm like, oh my word. So it's like, they were real all this time. But yes, to me, and that's also why I work so hard to actually promote the books once they're published, because I feel like I have a responsibility to these characters.

(15:39 - 18:37)
But then I take it to a certain point, and then I'm like, okay, so now people, you are out in the world. I've done my job, right? I've done all the machinations of what I had to. And I've promoted you, I've put you out there. 

And now you have to like, fend for yourself, sink or swim, I'm going to go write another book. But that's what I do. So after so many novels of such variety, is there anything you might not want to tackle as a writer? Or are there just things that you haven't tackled yet? You know, I don't think historical fiction is something I would like to do. 

Because I just can't really follow rules and things. And I need to let my imagination do what it likes. I've tried to write a cozy, but it just goes a bit weird. 

So that is not gonna happen. I have to admit, that's not gonna happen. I never wanted to write sci-fi, but then I did. 

I do love magical realism. I'm trying to think of anything else. I always wanted to write a noir gangster novel, always, because I've always been a great fan of like, Harry Cruz. 

And you know, that American writer, I've always wanted to write in the style of Harry, and maybe even Charles Bukowski, you know, that sort of way. And so I really, I guess I'd still like to write the ultimate Harry Cruz type novel, stroke Charles Bukowski. So I haven't achieved that yet. 

So that's still something I really want to do. And I'm not sure what form that would even take yet. Awesome. 

Well, you have another book already coming out next year, That Time I Killed You, which is a thriller, which is exciting. Would you like to give us a little brief preview to that book or a little brief insight? Absolutely. And I think it's really, really a fun book. 

So in terms of what kind of genre it is, I think you would class it as a domestic thriller, because you have this young mom, and she lives in this very idyllic place. And she's landed there by, you know, happy circumstance. And she's got this very dark past that she doesn't want anyone to know about. 

And she is, what do we call them? The reality cake makers, like when people make cakes, and they look so real. It's like, it looks almost like a purse or a shoe. So she's happily in her little leafy, you know, Victorian, gothic, suburban seaside village. 

And she's baking her cakes. And you know, kids are just getting ready for the summer holidays. And up pops a very dark secret from her past in the form of big, big, bad, sexy Clive, who she thought she killed many years ago.

(18:37 - 18:52)
But there he is. And what is she going to do about this? And so that was so much fun to write. I have to say, it was really, because I, I'd never actually had children of my own.

(18:53 - 20:01)
But I have a niece and nephew, and who are 15 and 16. So I kind of live there in Australia. So unfortunately, I don't see them that much. 

So I kind of live vicariously, I guess, through the lives I imagine that they're having. I don't know for sure, because I, you know, haven't even seen them in a couple of years and stuff. So I hope that I kind of, you know, got them right. 

Now, I also hope that my niece and nephew don't think I muddled these kids on them. Because oftentimes, right, I'm sure you experienced this too. People think that they, you based a novel on them, or someone, but actually, you really haven't, you know. 

Also, the neighborhood, I love it. It's very much full of like teenage kids. And so just very observant what they're doing, etc. 

So, but it's really, that time I killed you is really such a fun novel. And I'm very, it's very different to Mad Dog, right? So different. So that's what's nice about doing all these different books.

(20:02 - 20:40)
Because the promoting of them, every time then I have like different blog posts to write about, or different inspirations and things, you know. So it's very refreshing for me to do. I can get throw myself into it very funny. 

So would you like to read from Mad Dog and the Sea Dragon for our audience? Absolutely. I would love to. Oh, and you know, there's, I don't know if you guys are watching Only Murders in the Building. 

It's the Steve Martin, Martin Short and Selena Gomez. I just love it. But in the most recent episode, there is a gangster named Tony the Tum.

(20:40 - 21:13)
And I have to say, I've got Tony the typewriter. And I'm like, oh my goodness, I hope no one thinks I followed the podcast. But actually, I wrote the book in 2018. 

So it kind of came first. Isn't it funny, the synchronicity of things? And I think as well, just to sidetrack slightly, you know, this season of Only Murders, I'm finding personally, really funny, because it's got that whole gangster thing, much like Sea Dog, Mad Dog and the Sea Dragon. Mad Dog and the Sea Dragon.

(21:13 - 25:54)
And it's really refreshing, because they also avoid the stereotypes of the gangsters in sort of such a unique, refreshing way. And I feel I've done that too. But it's kind of nice to see that, you know, I don't know, like this parallel synchronicity of let's explore the gangster noir in a fun, entertaining way, you know, and just have some fun with it. 

So anyway, I'll read to you. And I always like to actually have chapter titles. I think that they're kind of fun. 

So this one is called The Ballroom of Skulls and Tony the typewriter. Talk about awkward, me alone with my life's, my lover's wife, who was also my sister's lover. Donatella led me through a maze of dimly lit, thickly carpeted corridors. 

So it wasn't just the living room that looked like an African safari had taken root in the Swiss Alps. It was the whole house. The corridor smelled musty and odd, like cloves mixed with rotting carpets and mildew. 

I tried to convince myself that it was just the oils from the spa that were making me feel ill, that I was colored in too much eucalyptus, lamb lamb, cedarwood and tarn, but it wasn't there. Wait, Donatella stop, you gotta see the skull room. She grabbed me by the hand and opened two carved ballroom doors with brass inlays. 

At first, I thought the room was a gorgeous library, layered with shelves and wrought iron ladders and glass-fronted cabinets. And I was right, it was a library, only it wasn't full of books. This was a macabre collection of skeletons, effigies, relics, preserved body parts in vintage jars, horrifying antique medical equipment, medieval torture tools and mangy taxidermy animals. 

And skulls, hundreds and hundreds of skulls. I felt dizzy. I turned to leave and nearly crashed into a stuck wildebeest, warthog and an enormous giraffe. 

I have to leave, I said to Donatella, but she ignored me. Papa Anthony used to bring me in here when I was a little girl, she said. I was brought to the lodge to play with Enzo, but he was so boring. 

He just wanted to watch the trains go round and round and round the trains, or he'd try to get me to sit on his penis. But Papa Anthony told me the story of every single skull, and there are close to a thousand skulls in here. She sounded so proud. 

I turned and ran. Donatella was as messed up as the rest of it. Hey, honey, you need to take care of you, Donatella said, catching up with me. 

I'm gonna tell you this, you mess with the Esposito's or the Caputo's and you end up pickled in a jar labelled miscellaneous. Enzo's father, Anthony Junior, he had no spine. His skull room was the only way he knew how to make himself look like a real badass. 

But his pop, Tony the typewriter, he was the real deal. Back when he was making his way up, typewriters were a new fad, and Tony said he found the best use for them. He was built like an ox, and he'd swing two typewriters together and bam, he'd squash a guy's skull like a bug. 

I should have shown you the typewriters in the skull room, but I forgot. They still got blood and hair on them between the keys. I was infinitely grateful she hadn't. 

But nothing lasts forever, she continued, sounding rueful. Tony the typewriter got careless, and he got taken out by Nicky the Nose Nicoletti, who by the way was a third cousin to my grandpa. The business got passed on to Enzo's pop, who wasn't up to scratch as we all know, but Grace more than made up for that. 

And Enzo thinks he's in charge, but Grace still runs the show. Everybody knows it, even Enzo. And when Grace dies, my family, the Caputo's, will take over.

(25:54 - 26:09)
And Enzo, he might make it for about six months before he dies, and I hope he's in the middle of a shaker when it happens. She had quite the mouth on her. But why didn't you try to leave, I asked.

(26:10 - 27:19)
I'm family, she said. You don't get to leave if you're family. And with that, she slipped out, closing the door behind her. 

So you can tell it's a, yeah, it's quite intense, mad dog, but I promise there are really funny light moments as well. Sometimes when I read the books, I always feel like I have to apologize for this change. There is a lot of comedy, and there's a lot of tension and drama as well. 

Agreed. So thank you very much. Mad Dog and the Sea Dragon is published by Inanna Press. 

It's available now. Again, thank you so much, Lisa D. Nicholas, for joining us today. And thank you both very, very much for having me as a guest. 

I appreciate it very much. Thanks for joining us. Look for more episodes of All Right in Sin City wherever you listen to podcasts, or check out our website, AllRightInSinCity.com. For information and announcements of new podcasts, sign up to our email list or follow us on Facebook and Twitter.